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[08:30:19] <epony> yeah.. I should have tagged that nick ;-)
[09:36:25] <KREYREN> <Tsvetan> "So for someone who have no CNC..." <- if you have no CNC and you are in the EU then search the web for local makerspace they let you use those after you go through their free course often for free e.g. in Brno, czechia that's how base48 works
[09:38:28] <KREYREN> and it's not really a better deal for me considering the harm done by FR-4 to the environment which is the main reason to want metal-based PCBs for me so i would even pay extra for it, but it is more economical for simple boards to propose it
[09:41:57] <epony> PCB production at home is more pollution and manual labour which is really unsustainable, you can not teach others what you do not understand well yourself ;-)
[09:44:00] <epony> in PCB production the machines are called drill and mill / router / scoring.. and you have to metalise the through holes, being stuck 50-60 years in the past is not fun
[09:45:33] <epony> better wave the industrial nature preservation flags in corporate data centre or textile factory in the South-Asian region
[09:45:38] <KREYREN> If you get aluminium sheet instead of making your own it's the same amount of harmful gases released in the atmosphere, if you make it at home then using an electric and hydrogen heat source makes the amount insignificant
[09:45:38] <KREYREN> And even if you make it yourself it's still less harm to the environment bcs of how FR-4 decomposes.. almost worse as microplastic issue
[09:46:12] <epony> KREYREN, that being said, you have no clue ;-) what you're talking about
[09:47:50] <KREYREN> i do, I make PCBs on semi-regular bases
[09:48:22] <epony> yeah, sure, with acid baths in a garage
[09:49:23] <KREYREN> no mostly through 3rd party, acid baths are waste of time considering the pricing by those
[09:50:26] <KREYREN> since you can realistically make double sided PCBs reliably that way, but doing more layers is pain
[09:50:31] <epony> so you've discovered the cheapest Asian markets and insist everyone else has not, and does not know what they are doing, because you know and they should order their batches through your intermediary pollution details ;-) that's not how things work, and still you have no idea
[09:51:45] <epony> PCB production happens everywhere, cheaper and more expensive depending on quality and batches, and you don't know where and how so any environmental claims are bogus and pointless at the prototype and small batch single user case
[09:52:15] <KREYREN> i don't say you don't know what you are doing i am proposing alternative design for the double sided PCBs used in TERES-1 for consideration either you want it or not O.o
[09:52:36] <KREYREN> and not really asian markets same for local czech production
[09:52:52] <epony> which is MORE expensive than local production we have here
[09:53:10] <epony> which is even more expensive than Asian production outsourcing
[09:53:18] <KREYREN> thus why i said alternative for those who might have a more economical option or want to pay extra for alluminium
[09:53:42] <KREYREN> ACTION doesn't know how PCB fabrication cost works in bulgaria but would guess it's less economical compared to the central EU
[09:53:44] <epony> what you're saying is not how production cycles run and the economic realities you're proposing do not exist in that way and are wrong completely
[09:53:58] <epony> KREYREN, get better information
[09:54:18] <epony> you have been using PCBs produced here since the 70ies
[09:54:28] <epony> and are still using it
[09:54:32] <epony> without even knowing
[09:57:38] <KREYREN> don't have a single PCB at my home that is made in bulgaria
[09:57:54] <epony> check your car
[09:58:18] <KREYREN> sold and money donated to ukraine lol
[09:58:44] <epony> good luck with your pollution stance and mini production trials
[09:59:38] <KREYREN> like microfabrication is a thing
[09:59:53] <KREYREN> e.g. airbus is doing that and is can be scaled however you want
[10:00:24] <epony> at least University education is a start ;-)
[10:00:58] <KREYREN> great i am doing second and third now
[10:01:46] <epony> you can always order your batches in our PCB factories like the rest of European industry does
[10:02:22] <epony> you'll get better deals than your local production facilities
[10:02:32] <epony> and higher quality and output
[10:02:37] <KREYREN> will take a look
[10:03:52] <KREYREN> considering the cost of TERES-1 the shipping probably eats up all the benefit
[10:04:56] <epony> automotive and industrial electronics sectors rely on these facilities.. and the processes are exceeding parameters for consumer and prototype batches electronics
[10:06:10] <epony> that said, micro-production still happens in Asian production facilities too, despite the long delayes and high transport costs involved
[10:06:18] <KREYREN> e.g. TERES-1 costs me 8102 CZK = 328.65 EUR so far only the 80 EUR mainboard is more economical unless i want to buy 10 of them (67.21 EUR each) and sell 8
[10:06:48] <epony> yep, these are the realities of end-user product distribution
[10:07:43] <KREYREN> it's still 1/3rd more economical to do that in czechia excluding the mainboard
[10:08:29] <KREYREN> so even if i would be paying more for alluminium (which i am not) then it's still more economical'
[10:09:35] <epony> probably for individual / local sourcing on accessories these are not pooled costs like you'd get from a local shop, which will be sourcing these from Asia fully assembled
[10:10:07] <epony> US industry produces in Asia too
[10:10:17] <KREYREN> looking through bulgaria PCBs on the web it seems that you can make slightly more economical FR-4 and significantly more expensive alluminium 🤔
[10:10:28] <epony> FR-4 is import
[10:10:53] <KREYREN> epony: no local shops are making it at the place.. the one who is doing sourcing is not economical
[10:11:29] <KREYREN> ~40% added cost for those who are sourcing, but locally i have like 8 companies just in brno who make PCBs at their place
[10:11:30] <epony> base materials are all imports and there are few really standing etching and metalisation facilities
[10:11:53] <epony> and that is energy sensitive and remains engaged in industrial and automotive sectors
[10:12:11] <KREYREN> we get aluminium from poland and germany last time i checked so maybe that's why it's more economical in czechia and less in bulgaria
[10:12:27] <epony> PCBs are made with copper, period
[10:12:49] <KREYREN> copper from germany and france iirc
[10:13:31] <epony> we have local ore production, let's not become absurd into knowing everything, that's really not the aim of producing small batches of consumer electronics
[10:13:33] <KREYREN> also you can make PCBs in silver.. if you do investing in silver like me then that's very economical, but not everyone has that option
[10:14:03] <epony> these are more time wasting debates about consumer small devices
[10:14:38] <KREYREN> we don't have local ore production as much bcs czech spa industry is making significantly more money
[10:14:42] <KREYREN> so we import instead
[10:14:45] <epony> you ARE importing metals from here in Central and Western Europe
[10:15:15] <KREYREN> my copper is from germany and alluminium self-made
[10:15:23] <KREYREN> through recycling
[10:15:32] <epony> yes, they are sent via Germany
[10:15:47] <epony> also the PCBs produced here end up in Germany
[10:16:07] <KREYREN> why do you get worse price for aluminium PCBs then
[10:16:28] <epony> We do not use aluminium in PCB production ;-) you're confused about these details.
[10:16:40] <KREYREN> hm i see
[10:16:52] <epony> Copper plated base material
[10:17:04] <KREYREN> so why is me submitting a tested alternative alluminium PCBs not acceptable upstream
[10:17:27] <KREYREN> epony: you have more economical alternative to alluminium for metal pcbs?
[10:17:51] <epony> not suitable for production of course
[10:17:57] <epony> COPPER.
[10:18:04] <epony> what the world uses
[10:18:12] <KREYREN> you put copper on FR-4
[10:18:22] <epony> that's what it uses
[10:18:27] <KREYREN> or like base copper? that's less economical
[10:18:33] <epony> Aluminium is not used
[10:18:48] <KREYREN> Used at my place(TM)
[10:18:59] <epony> that's for conductivity and heat evacuation and is more expensive and not used for the electrical traces
[10:19:23] <epony> also it needs to be laminated as it corrodes and degrades and is worse conductivity and electrical properites
[10:20:08] <KREYREN> you need to read up on alluminium pcbs people have this weird idea that it's only used for LEDs for some reason
[10:20:22] <epony> you can't win arguments with physics and economics, but you can convince people they need aluminium clad PCBs with valid information and production offers and requests for manufacturing
[10:20:47] <KREYREN> i can win with physics across the board and with economics for single or two sided pcbs
[10:20:54] <epony> that's coming from a misinformed position already
[10:21:30] <epony> copper ;-)
[10:21:53] <KREYREN> people don't use base copper because it's more expensive then alu
[10:22:06] <KREYREN> that's like the point of why alu pcbs are popular for these things
[10:22:14] <epony> they are not
[10:22:25] <KREYREN> agree to disagree then
[10:22:51] <epony> yes, but you have to convince PCB production facilities
[10:22:59] <KREYREN> i will work on the alu pcb for my system if you want them i can submit them including tests irl else i make them in my fork 🤷
[10:23:11] <epony> that starts by ordering their produce and seeking what you can order from where
[10:23:24] <KREYREN> i do that
[10:23:44] <epony> otherwise you get employed by these facilities if you want to instruct them something, which needs the education and process understanding
[10:24:01] <KREYREN> can you just for a second consider the possibility that alu pcbs are a thing that is used beyond LEDs
[10:24:10] <epony> yes
[10:24:39] <KREYREN> physics support that, ecology support it economy as long as it's single or double sided for at least 4 years
[10:24:42] <KREYREN> what more do you want
[10:25:38] <epony> they are used for midlayers on shielding and thermal improved designs for example on graphics cards and mainboards and RF sensitive equipment but not for the tracing of current flow, where the really important material (copper, which is more expensive and has better electrical properties) is really used and at mass scale not worth challenging
[10:27:01] <KREYREN> yes but you can also use them as base material
[10:27:04] <epony> silver coating / plating is used in more special application use cases for higher frequencies and is specific to the environment and finish
[10:27:12] <KREYREN> just needs different engineering
[10:27:20] <epony> yes you could but you don't since it has worse electrical parameters
[10:27:39] <KREYREN> who cares about worse electrical parameters.. they are still within the designed range
[10:27:50] <epony> the production facilities
[10:28:40] <KREYREN> it's insignificant and often worth it since you have to cool down the parts on the PCB and alu is huge heatsink basically
[10:28:48] <epony> aluminium has more uses in the component production in capacitors and metalisation joints and component electrical leads
[10:29:33] <epony> yes, you put aluminium here and there depending on your designs.. it's inevitable, just on the electrical traces of PCBs
[10:29:42] <epony> "not there"
[10:29:55] <KREYREN> i am talking about alu as base material as you still don't understand the uses
[10:30:20] <epony> the misunderstanding is not in the production facilities
[10:30:24] <KREYREN> and like worst case scenario you coat alu in dielectric and put traces on top of the base material if you really need that insignificant conductivity difference
[10:33:08] <epony> we are not starved on metalisation and metal processing facilities or energy.. and the productions are running regardless
[10:33:46] <epony> it's just small productions and prototyping that leave the local and continental cycles
[10:34:03] <epony> and very large production of very high quality consumer products too
[10:34:47] <KREYREN> why is that relevant
[10:35:55] <epony> the points made make sense on economic and industrial scale
[10:35:56] <KREYREN> i agree that multi-layer through hole alu PCBs are alien tech not available to the average consumer thus why i want to use it only for the single and two sided once
[10:36:18] <KREYREN> like holy$%^& alien tech.. 3 layer alu pcb for +1000 EUR
[10:36:59] <KREYREN> at that point i would rather use silver as a base material, but none knows how to do that sadly :(
[10:37:19] <epony> it's just copper which is metalised / electroplated and lacquered mask covered and solder ready for the consumer, in case you are unable to order the mounted assemblies or want to do it with more expensive labour
[10:37:44] <epony> this aliminium point you're trying to make is your own search
[10:37:47] <KREYREN> agree excluding single and double sided
[10:38:14] <KREYREN> it's still a better option for me to use in teres for the sister boards
[10:39:00] <KREYREN> e.g. the power button 1 EUR + shipping from OLIMEX or 0.86EUR czechia to which i can go using public transport
[10:39:33] <KREYREN> or a bike which is what i am likely going to do when going for the pcbs
[10:40:28] <epony> higher currents heat dissipation is probably what you're interested into
[10:41:08] <KREYREN> it's 5VDC3A device..
[10:41:17] <epony> aliminium makes sense in such applications, but it's really less durable for PCB tracing than copper and has worse thermal and electrical properties
[10:41:49] <KREYREN> agree, but base copper is not economical or worth it
[10:42:28] <KREYREN> and i hate FR-4 so even paying extra to avoid using them is W in my book
[10:43:19] <KREYREN> and you can use alu for higher current too
[10:47:00] <epony> I can only recommend reading the information on the encyclopedia links provided above and then ordering materials of PCB and assembly production facilities in your region and other Eastern European and just then.. far East markets (costs and time and inability to control the process for small batches)
[10:48:41] <epony> even if aluminium is less expensive, its production for PCB laminate tracing currents (electrical layers) is significantly (orders of magnitude) less frequent (specific uses) and that makes it more expensive in general, as you've probably found out already
[10:50:50] <epony> if you can match "end consumer" pricing on individual orders separately that way, you're probably unable to match the production batches economically, the production details are depending on local economies, production facilities, labour quality and availability and costs and transport
[10:52:39] <epony> it is probably best to assemble a lit of possible production facilities and ask them each pricing and volume / time details, you might as well end up reusing ready-to-refactor units fully populated and meeting your needs from consumer scale electronics trading bidding sites
[10:53:40] <epony> and for production, long deliveries are not critical, you have the processes and transport costs, calculations prove logic
[10:54:15] <epony> but the PCBs are made with copper plated base material for their largest proportion world wide
[10:54:48] <epony> and you have choices for that too ;-)
[10:55:50] <epony> it's highly likely producers of electronics know these details and employ people to work in the sector and that results in consumer ready devices and assembly kits
[10:56:50] <epony> how much of the process you design and control your side of the ordering and manufacturing process is entirely up to your capacity and local premises and preferences
[10:58:25] <epony> environmental concerns are realised with recycling after the consumer cycle has been complete, and efficient designs and economic and careful production to optimise the devices and the resources used
[10:59:17] <epony> aluminium is a really abundant material with expensive processing, same applies for other elements like copper, zinc, lead and tin
[11:00:39] <epony> it's likely less demanding electical properties and costs devices are produced in less optimal metallisation processes, but copper is used mostly in PCB production for the electrical layer with metalisation cover and mask layers on top of that
[11:12:17] <KREYREN> <epony> "even if aluminium is less..." <- they literally sell sandwitch of alu dielectic alu board you cut on CNC and if needs be electroplate for through hole conductivity
[11:13:19] <KREYREN> which is very economical more so then FR-4
[11:14:38] <epony> no, it isn't
[11:15:24] <epony> non-metalised through-hole is an intermediate step in the production which has been cancelled / terminated before it is complete
[11:22:03] <KREYREN> agree to disagree i will submit the PCB in my repo if you want it you can copy paste it then
[11:22:34] <epony> we have production facilities here ;-)
[11:22:56] <epony> if you don't have local.. your economy is transport sensitive then
[11:23:57] <KREYREN> czechia has one of the most economical transport in the EU you just don't understand that alu is better option for single/two sided pcbs
[11:24:20] <epony> the misunderstanding is on the consumer and design stages
[11:24:36] <epony> and in the transport sector inefficiencies
[11:25:18] <nedko> KREYREN: do you produce OSHW aluminium PCB alternatives?
[11:25:38] <KREYREN> nedko: working on one atm yes
[11:26:48] <KREYREN> epony: we have the most developed transport industry in the EU excluding sea.. the transport ain't the issue
[11:27:01] <nedko> KREYREN: do you have CNC project for teres case?
[11:27:07] <KREYREN> *one of the most developed.. i think germans surpassed us recently but usually not for long
[11:27:29] <KREYREN> nedko: i have it in TODO to make 3D printable case
[11:29:04] <nedko> currently part of my case is diy-made from 2mm copper clad fiberglass
[11:29:08] <KREYREN> nedko: if you want metal case for teres then i can adjust the design to change based on used material.. i use fCAD for the designs
[11:29:33] <nedko> KREYREN: i'm more interested in OSHW CNC case
[11:29:51] <nedko> if you can sell one of titanium, even better :)
[11:29:52] <epony> but you don't have braker presses for bending aluminium and injection molding process for plastic covers
[11:30:16] <KREYREN> it can generate a drilling data to cut the case from your selected material
[11:30:17] <nedko> aluminium in general does not bend...
[11:30:40] <KREYREN> it bends but with heat, blood and tears usually
[11:31:02] <KREYREN> at least it did that way when i tried it
[11:31:29] <nedko> if it is pure Al it soft yes, but it is usually alloy that will break
[11:32:15] <KREYREN> pure Alu is pain to heat right though it warps and melts too quickly
[11:32:21] <nedko> so either molding or CNC...
[11:33:44] <KREYREN> my way of doing additive manufacturing can do both CNC and 3D printing just input material properties in the header of the file and it generates it
[11:34:41] <epony> it's also specific for milling and drilling as well, you'll find out the details as you make requests for information from production facilities
[11:35:31] <KREYREN> i would recommend using Cellulose-based plastic for the notebook though
[11:35:35] <KREYREN> *notebook case
[11:35:51] <nedko> why?
[11:36:29] <KREYREN> those are made out of sustainable materials and fully compostable without the issue of microplastics like PLA
[11:36:39] <epony> that would be a degradation from the 80ies PC housing processes
[11:36:58] <KREYREN> o.o
[11:37:09] <KREYREN> they still use cellulose in houses you know xD
[11:37:19] <nedko> KREYREN: how cutting trees for cellulose is more sustainable...
[11:37:35] <epony> case / enclosure / housing is a term for the device exterior
[11:38:22] <KREYREN> you can always make more trees compared to using corn starch, syrup and (forgot the other ingredients) that pollute unless recycled
[11:38:47] <KREYREN> epony: stop ruining my jokes
[11:38:54] <nedko> KREYREN: or you can easily recycle the metal
[11:39:14] <KREYREN> which produces CO2 usually
[11:39:46] <epony> also if you see how "sustainable" bamboo bicycle frames are in costs and durability and remodelling, you'll starting understanding why the shoebox and cardboard PC is a school project for grades 1-5
[11:39:47] <KREYREN> unless you use electric or hydrogen to melt the metal and for electric you need a lot of solar panels and batteries to sustain
[11:39:52] <nedko> KREYREN: only if you use coal power stations
[11:40:16] <KREYREN> we in energy crysis can't help it really atm
[11:40:30] <epony> "you" not we
[11:40:34] <KREYREN> i am on renewable energy but that can't sustain heating the metal if i am to be warm in winter
[11:40:42] <KREYREN> epony: you in bulgaria too
[11:40:53] <nedko> KREYREN: Al production became cheap, economically affordable when electricity became used in the process...
[11:41:02] <epony> not really
[11:41:23] <KREYREN> nedko: i know my game plan is using hydrogen that i extract from the air using sunlight
[11:41:42] <KREYREN> epony: ye + the cost of the materials
[11:41:51] <nedko> KREYREN: you think there is free hydrogen in air?
[11:42:48] <KREYREN> there is hydrogen in water that separates if you put electricity into it 🤔 but i want to try the air way too which is significantly more energy inefficient
[11:43:40] <KREYREN> ACTION wants to have net positive impact on the climate to try the airway as it's likely that it will clean the air during the process even when it's like using a teaspoon in the ocean
[11:44:37] <KREYREN> didn't even look at how it's done saw some insane and complicated engineering there to rather focus on the water
[11:44:46] <KREYREN> at least atm
IRC #olimex 2022-09-29
[07:58:46] <Tsvetan> epony read above my message what KREYREN wrote :)[08:30:19] <epony> yeah.. I should have tagged that nick ;-)
[09:36:25] <KREYREN> <Tsvetan> "So for someone who have no CNC..." <- if you have no CNC and you are in the EU then search the web for local makerspace they let you use those after you go through their free course often for free e.g. in Brno, czechia that's how base48 works
[09:38:28] <KREYREN> and it's not really a better deal for me considering the harm done by FR-4 to the environment which is the main reason to want metal-based PCBs for me so i would even pay extra for it, but it is more economical for simple boards to propose it
[09:41:57] <epony> PCB production at home is more pollution and manual labour which is really unsustainable, you can not teach others what you do not understand well yourself ;-)
[09:44:00] <epony> in PCB production the machines are called drill and mill / router / scoring.. and you have to metalise the through holes, being stuck 50-60 years in the past is not fun
[09:45:33] <epony> better wave the industrial nature preservation flags in corporate data centre or textile factory in the South-Asian region
[09:45:38] <KREYREN> If you get aluminium sheet instead of making your own it's the same amount of harmful gases released in the atmosphere, if you make it at home then using an electric and hydrogen heat source makes the amount insignificant
[09:45:38] <KREYREN> And even if you make it yourself it's still less harm to the environment bcs of how FR-4 decomposes.. almost worse as microplastic issue
[09:46:12] <epony> KREYREN, that being said, you have no clue ;-) what you're talking about
[09:47:50] <KREYREN> i do, I make PCBs on semi-regular bases
[09:48:22] <epony> yeah, sure, with acid baths in a garage
[09:49:23] <KREYREN> no mostly through 3rd party, acid baths are waste of time considering the pricing by those
[09:50:26] <KREYREN> since you can realistically make double sided PCBs reliably that way, but doing more layers is pain
[09:50:31] <epony> so you've discovered the cheapest Asian markets and insist everyone else has not, and does not know what they are doing, because you know and they should order their batches through your intermediary pollution details ;-) that's not how things work, and still you have no idea
[09:51:45] <epony> PCB production happens everywhere, cheaper and more expensive depending on quality and batches, and you don't know where and how so any environmental claims are bogus and pointless at the prototype and small batch single user case
[09:52:15] <KREYREN> i don't say you don't know what you are doing i am proposing alternative design for the double sided PCBs used in TERES-1 for consideration either you want it or not O.o
[09:52:36] <KREYREN> and not really asian markets same for local czech production
[09:52:52] <epony> which is MORE expensive than local production we have here
[09:53:10] <epony> which is even more expensive than Asian production outsourcing
[09:53:18] <KREYREN> thus why i said alternative for those who might have a more economical option or want to pay extra for alluminium
[09:53:42] <KREYREN> ACTION doesn't know how PCB fabrication cost works in bulgaria but would guess it's less economical compared to the central EU
[09:53:44] <epony> what you're saying is not how production cycles run and the economic realities you're proposing do not exist in that way and are wrong completely
[09:53:58] <epony> KREYREN, get better information
[09:54:18] <epony> you have been using PCBs produced here since the 70ies
[09:54:28] <epony> and are still using it
[09:54:32] <epony> without even knowing
[09:57:38] <KREYREN> don't have a single PCB at my home that is made in bulgaria
[09:57:54] <epony> check your car
[09:58:18] <KREYREN> sold and money donated to ukraine lol
[09:58:44] <epony> good luck with your pollution stance and mini production trials
[09:59:38] <KREYREN> like microfabrication is a thing
[09:59:53] <KREYREN> e.g. airbus is doing that and is can be scaled however you want
[10:00:24] <epony> at least University education is a start ;-)
[10:00:58] <KREYREN> great i am doing second and third now
[10:01:46] <epony> you can always order your batches in our PCB factories like the rest of European industry does
[10:02:22] <epony> you'll get better deals than your local production facilities
[10:02:32] <epony> and higher quality and output
[10:02:37] <KREYREN> will take a look
[10:03:52] <KREYREN> considering the cost of TERES-1 the shipping probably eats up all the benefit
[10:04:56] <epony> automotive and industrial electronics sectors rely on these facilities.. and the processes are exceeding parameters for consumer and prototype batches electronics
[10:06:10] <epony> that said, micro-production still happens in Asian production facilities too, despite the long delayes and high transport costs involved
[10:06:18] <KREYREN> e.g. TERES-1 costs me 8102 CZK = 328.65 EUR so far only the 80 EUR mainboard is more economical unless i want to buy 10 of them (67.21 EUR each) and sell 8
[10:06:48] <epony> yep, these are the realities of end-user product distribution
[10:07:43] <KREYREN> it's still 1/3rd more economical to do that in czechia excluding the mainboard
[10:08:29] <KREYREN> so even if i would be paying more for alluminium (which i am not) then it's still more economical'
[10:09:35] <epony> probably for individual / local sourcing on accessories these are not pooled costs like you'd get from a local shop, which will be sourcing these from Asia fully assembled
[10:10:07] <epony> US industry produces in Asia too
[10:10:17] <KREYREN> looking through bulgaria PCBs on the web it seems that you can make slightly more economical FR-4 and significantly more expensive alluminium 🤔
[10:10:28] <epony> FR-4 is import
[10:10:53] <KREYREN> epony: no local shops are making it at the place.. the one who is doing sourcing is not economical
[10:11:29] <KREYREN> ~40% added cost for those who are sourcing, but locally i have like 8 companies just in brno who make PCBs at their place
[10:11:30] <epony> base materials are all imports and there are few really standing etching and metalisation facilities
[10:11:53] <epony> and that is energy sensitive and remains engaged in industrial and automotive sectors
[10:12:11] <KREYREN> we get aluminium from poland and germany last time i checked so maybe that's why it's more economical in czechia and less in bulgaria
[10:12:27] <epony> PCBs are made with copper, period
[10:12:49] <KREYREN> copper from germany and france iirc
[10:13:31] <epony> we have local ore production, let's not become absurd into knowing everything, that's really not the aim of producing small batches of consumer electronics
[10:13:33] <KREYREN> also you can make PCBs in silver.. if you do investing in silver like me then that's very economical, but not everyone has that option
[10:14:03] <epony> these are more time wasting debates about consumer small devices
[10:14:38] <KREYREN> we don't have local ore production as much bcs czech spa industry is making significantly more money
[10:14:42] <KREYREN> so we import instead
[10:14:45] <epony> you ARE importing metals from here in Central and Western Europe
[10:15:15] <KREYREN> my copper is from germany and alluminium self-made
[10:15:23] <KREYREN> through recycling
[10:15:32] <epony> yes, they are sent via Germany
[10:15:47] <epony> also the PCBs produced here end up in Germany
[10:16:07] <KREYREN> why do you get worse price for aluminium PCBs then
[10:16:28] <epony> We do not use aluminium in PCB production ;-) you're confused about these details.
[10:16:40] <KREYREN> hm i see
[10:16:52] <epony> Copper plated base material
[10:17:04] <KREYREN> so why is me submitting a tested alternative alluminium PCBs not acceptable upstream
[10:17:27] <KREYREN> epony: you have more economical alternative to alluminium for metal pcbs?
[10:17:51] <epony> not suitable for production of course
[10:17:57] <epony> COPPER.
[10:18:04] <epony> what the world uses
[10:18:12] <KREYREN> you put copper on FR-4
[10:18:22] <epony> that's what it uses
[10:18:27] <KREYREN> or like base copper? that's less economical
[10:18:33] <epony> Aluminium is not used
[10:18:48] <KREYREN> Used at my place(TM)
[10:18:59] <epony> that's for conductivity and heat evacuation and is more expensive and not used for the electrical traces
[10:19:23] <epony> also it needs to be laminated as it corrodes and degrades and is worse conductivity and electrical properites
[10:20:08] <KREYREN> you need to read up on alluminium pcbs people have this weird idea that it's only used for LEDs for some reason
[10:20:22] <epony> you can't win arguments with physics and economics, but you can convince people they need aluminium clad PCBs with valid information and production offers and requests for manufacturing
[10:20:47] <KREYREN> i can win with physics across the board and with economics for single or two sided pcbs
[10:20:54] <epony> that's coming from a misinformed position already
[10:21:30] <epony> copper ;-)
[10:21:53] <KREYREN> people don't use base copper because it's more expensive then alu
[10:22:06] <KREYREN> that's like the point of why alu pcbs are popular for these things
[10:22:14] <epony> they are not
[10:22:25] <KREYREN> agree to disagree then
[10:22:51] <epony> yes, but you have to convince PCB production facilities
[10:22:59] <KREYREN> i will work on the alu pcb for my system if you want them i can submit them including tests irl else i make them in my fork 🤷
[10:23:11] <epony> that starts by ordering their produce and seeking what you can order from where
[10:23:24] <KREYREN> i do that
[10:23:44] <epony> otherwise you get employed by these facilities if you want to instruct them something, which needs the education and process understanding
[10:24:01] <KREYREN> can you just for a second consider the possibility that alu pcbs are a thing that is used beyond LEDs
[10:24:10] <epony> yes
[10:24:39] <KREYREN> physics support that, ecology support it economy as long as it's single or double sided for at least 4 years
[10:24:42] <KREYREN> what more do you want
[10:25:38] <epony> they are used for midlayers on shielding and thermal improved designs for example on graphics cards and mainboards and RF sensitive equipment but not for the tracing of current flow, where the really important material (copper, which is more expensive and has better electrical properties) is really used and at mass scale not worth challenging
[10:27:01] <KREYREN> yes but you can also use them as base material
[10:27:04] <epony> silver coating / plating is used in more special application use cases for higher frequencies and is specific to the environment and finish
[10:27:12] <KREYREN> just needs different engineering
[10:27:20] <epony> yes you could but you don't since it has worse electrical parameters
[10:27:39] <KREYREN> who cares about worse electrical parameters.. they are still within the designed range
[10:27:50] <epony> the production facilities
[10:28:40] <KREYREN> it's insignificant and often worth it since you have to cool down the parts on the PCB and alu is huge heatsink basically
[10:28:48] <epony> aluminium has more uses in the component production in capacitors and metalisation joints and component electrical leads
[10:29:33] <epony> yes, you put aluminium here and there depending on your designs.. it's inevitable, just on the electrical traces of PCBs
[10:29:42] <epony> "not there"
[10:29:55] <KREYREN> i am talking about alu as base material as you still don't understand the uses
[10:30:20] <epony> the misunderstanding is not in the production facilities
[10:30:24] <KREYREN> and like worst case scenario you coat alu in dielectric and put traces on top of the base material if you really need that insignificant conductivity difference
[10:33:08] <epony> we are not starved on metalisation and metal processing facilities or energy.. and the productions are running regardless
[10:33:46] <epony> it's just small productions and prototyping that leave the local and continental cycles
[10:34:03] <epony> and very large production of very high quality consumer products too
[10:34:47] <KREYREN> why is that relevant
[10:35:55] <epony> the points made make sense on economic and industrial scale
[10:35:56] <KREYREN> i agree that multi-layer through hole alu PCBs are alien tech not available to the average consumer thus why i want to use it only for the single and two sided once
[10:36:18] <KREYREN> like holy$%^& alien tech.. 3 layer alu pcb for +1000 EUR
[10:36:59] <KREYREN> at that point i would rather use silver as a base material, but none knows how to do that sadly :(
[10:37:19] <epony> it's just copper which is metalised / electroplated and lacquered mask covered and solder ready for the consumer, in case you are unable to order the mounted assemblies or want to do it with more expensive labour
[10:37:44] <epony> this aliminium point you're trying to make is your own search
[10:37:47] <KREYREN> agree excluding single and double sided
[10:38:14] <KREYREN> it's still a better option for me to use in teres for the sister boards
[10:39:00] <KREYREN> e.g. the power button 1 EUR + shipping from OLIMEX or 0.86EUR czechia to which i can go using public transport
[10:39:33] <KREYREN> or a bike which is what i am likely going to do when going for the pcbs
[10:40:28] <epony> higher currents heat dissipation is probably what you're interested into
[10:41:08] <KREYREN> it's 5VDC3A device..
[10:41:17] <epony> aliminium makes sense in such applications, but it's really less durable for PCB tracing than copper and has worse thermal and electrical properties
[10:41:49] <KREYREN> agree, but base copper is not economical or worth it
[10:42:28] <KREYREN> and i hate FR-4 so even paying extra to avoid using them is W in my book
[10:43:19] <KREYREN> and you can use alu for higher current too
[10:47:00] <epony> I can only recommend reading the information on the encyclopedia links provided above and then ordering materials of PCB and assembly production facilities in your region and other Eastern European and just then.. far East markets (costs and time and inability to control the process for small batches)
[10:48:41] <epony> even if aluminium is less expensive, its production for PCB laminate tracing currents (electrical layers) is significantly (orders of magnitude) less frequent (specific uses) and that makes it more expensive in general, as you've probably found out already
[10:50:50] <epony> if you can match "end consumer" pricing on individual orders separately that way, you're probably unable to match the production batches economically, the production details are depending on local economies, production facilities, labour quality and availability and costs and transport
[10:52:39] <epony> it is probably best to assemble a lit of possible production facilities and ask them each pricing and volume / time details, you might as well end up reusing ready-to-refactor units fully populated and meeting your needs from consumer scale electronics trading bidding sites
[10:53:40] <epony> and for production, long deliveries are not critical, you have the processes and transport costs, calculations prove logic
[10:54:15] <epony> but the PCBs are made with copper plated base material for their largest proportion world wide
[10:54:48] <epony> and you have choices for that too ;-)
[10:55:50] <epony> it's highly likely producers of electronics know these details and employ people to work in the sector and that results in consumer ready devices and assembly kits
[10:56:50] <epony> how much of the process you design and control your side of the ordering and manufacturing process is entirely up to your capacity and local premises and preferences
[10:58:25] <epony> environmental concerns are realised with recycling after the consumer cycle has been complete, and efficient designs and economic and careful production to optimise the devices and the resources used
[10:59:17] <epony> aluminium is a really abundant material with expensive processing, same applies for other elements like copper, zinc, lead and tin
[11:00:39] <epony> it's likely less demanding electical properties and costs devices are produced in less optimal metallisation processes, but copper is used mostly in PCB production for the electrical layer with metalisation cover and mask layers on top of that
[11:12:17] <KREYREN> <epony> "even if aluminium is less..." <- they literally sell sandwitch of alu dielectic alu board you cut on CNC and if needs be electroplate for through hole conductivity
[11:13:19] <KREYREN> which is very economical more so then FR-4
[11:14:38] <epony> no, it isn't
[11:15:24] <epony> non-metalised through-hole is an intermediate step in the production which has been cancelled / terminated before it is complete
[11:22:03] <KREYREN> agree to disagree i will submit the PCB in my repo if you want it you can copy paste it then
[11:22:34] <epony> we have production facilities here ;-)
[11:22:56] <epony> if you don't have local.. your economy is transport sensitive then
[11:23:57] <KREYREN> czechia has one of the most economical transport in the EU you just don't understand that alu is better option for single/two sided pcbs
[11:24:20] <epony> the misunderstanding is on the consumer and design stages
[11:24:36] <epony> and in the transport sector inefficiencies
[11:25:18] <nedko> KREYREN: do you produce OSHW aluminium PCB alternatives?
[11:25:38] <KREYREN> nedko: working on one atm yes
[11:26:48] <KREYREN> epony: we have the most developed transport industry in the EU excluding sea.. the transport ain't the issue
[11:27:01] <nedko> KREYREN: do you have CNC project for teres case?
[11:27:07] <KREYREN> *one of the most developed.. i think germans surpassed us recently but usually not for long
[11:27:29] <KREYREN> nedko: i have it in TODO to make 3D printable case
[11:29:04] <nedko> currently part of my case is diy-made from 2mm copper clad fiberglass
[11:29:08] <KREYREN> nedko: if you want metal case for teres then i can adjust the design to change based on used material.. i use fCAD for the designs
[11:29:33] <nedko> KREYREN: i'm more interested in OSHW CNC case
[11:29:51] <nedko> if you can sell one of titanium, even better :)
[11:29:52] <epony> but you don't have braker presses for bending aluminium and injection molding process for plastic covers
[11:30:16] <KREYREN> it can generate a drilling data to cut the case from your selected material
[11:30:17] <nedko> aluminium in general does not bend...
[11:30:40] <KREYREN> it bends but with heat, blood and tears usually
[11:31:02] <KREYREN> at least it did that way when i tried it
[11:31:29] <nedko> if it is pure Al it soft yes, but it is usually alloy that will break
[11:32:15] <KREYREN> pure Alu is pain to heat right though it warps and melts too quickly
[11:32:21] <nedko> so either molding or CNC...
[11:33:44] <KREYREN> my way of doing additive manufacturing can do both CNC and 3D printing just input material properties in the header of the file and it generates it
[11:34:41] <epony> it's also specific for milling and drilling as well, you'll find out the details as you make requests for information from production facilities
[11:35:31] <KREYREN> i would recommend using Cellulose-based plastic for the notebook though
[11:35:35] <KREYREN> *notebook case
[11:35:51] <nedko> why?
[11:36:29] <KREYREN> those are made out of sustainable materials and fully compostable without the issue of microplastics like PLA
[11:36:39] <epony> that would be a degradation from the 80ies PC housing processes
[11:36:58] <KREYREN> o.o
[11:37:09] <KREYREN> they still use cellulose in houses you know xD
[11:37:19] <nedko> KREYREN: how cutting trees for cellulose is more sustainable...
[11:37:35] <epony> case / enclosure / housing is a term for the device exterior
[11:38:22] <KREYREN> you can always make more trees compared to using corn starch, syrup and (forgot the other ingredients) that pollute unless recycled
[11:38:47] <KREYREN> epony: stop ruining my jokes
[11:38:54] <nedko> KREYREN: or you can easily recycle the metal
[11:39:14] <KREYREN> which produces CO2 usually
[11:39:46] <epony> also if you see how "sustainable" bamboo bicycle frames are in costs and durability and remodelling, you'll starting understanding why the shoebox and cardboard PC is a school project for grades 1-5
[11:39:47] <KREYREN> unless you use electric or hydrogen to melt the metal and for electric you need a lot of solar panels and batteries to sustain
[11:39:52] <nedko> KREYREN: only if you use coal power stations
[11:40:16] <KREYREN> we in energy crysis can't help it really atm
[11:40:30] <epony> "you" not we
[11:40:34] <KREYREN> i am on renewable energy but that can't sustain heating the metal if i am to be warm in winter
[11:40:42] <KREYREN> epony: you in bulgaria too
[11:40:53] <nedko> KREYREN: Al production became cheap, economically affordable when electricity became used in the process...
[11:41:02] <epony> not really
[11:41:23] <KREYREN> nedko: i know my game plan is using hydrogen that i extract from the air using sunlight
[11:41:42] <KREYREN> epony: ye + the cost of the materials
[11:41:51] <nedko> KREYREN: you think there is free hydrogen in air?
[11:42:48] <KREYREN> there is hydrogen in water that separates if you put electricity into it 🤔 but i want to try the air way too which is significantly more energy inefficient
[11:43:40] <KREYREN> ACTION wants to have net positive impact on the climate to try the airway as it's likely that it will clean the air during the process even when it's like using a teaspoon in the ocean
[11:44:37] <KREYREN> didn't even look at how it's done saw some insane and complicated engineering there to rather focus on the water
[11:44:46] <KREYREN> at least atm
