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[02:30:35] <jonas> abetusk: LIME2
[02:31:44] <abetusk> jonas, thanks
[02:31:45] <jonas> that's the battletested board in that category - if you want something more powerful and less strongly tested, then the A64
[02:32:11] <jonas> you might find this helpful: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware
[02:37:10] <adjtm> abetusk, +1 for LIME2
[02:37:53] <adjtm> not that there are many OSH, not just from Olimex but from anyone
[02:39:11] <adjtm> Lime2 has 1GB RAM + 1Gbit ethernet vs 512MB and 100Mbit ethernet for Lime
[02:39:18] <adjtm> so I strongly recommend Lime2
[02:39:35] <abetusk> yeah, lime2 looks pretty good. I completely forgot about the beagleboards
[02:39:46] <abetusk> so I guess they're also an option
[02:40:11] <adjtm> SATA is also very nice if you need a lot of storage with decent performance and reliability
[02:41:54] <adjtm> the main downside for me (not very important) is that it's armv7, and this days armv8 has better support and is more future proof
[02:43:06] <abetusk> So there's basically two OSH alternatives to RPi...Olimex and Beagleboard?
[02:45:34] <adjtm> BeagleBone was very popular many years ago, omap had very good free software support but texas instrument discontinued their omap socs and I don't think that there is so much community around it like there is for allwinner socs
[02:53:00] <abetusk> ah interesting
[02:53:12] <abetusk> pretty sad state of affairs. I'm glad Olimex exists
[09:25:30] <diego71> adjtm_: omap was substitute with sitara that is almost the same chip
[09:27:20] <diego71> modern beagle board use sitara version of the chip
[13:10:33] <mps> so, running desktop on arm32 with 1GB ram, I wonder does this makes sense nowadays
[13:11:59] <mps> though I tested Xorg on nokia n900 which have 512MB ram
[13:25:53] <ghane> as long as you dont need modern web browsing...
[13:27:34] <mps> ghane: and 'you' don't need modern web browsing' nowadays :)
[13:30:28] <ghane> :-D
[13:31:31] <ghane> CDE on OpenBSD runns quite nice on the Lime ;)
[13:32:17] <mps> so awesome wm with linux could work also
[13:33:16] <mps> btw, iirc I read somewhere some time ago that olimex boards are used in some space satelites. Is that true and if on which ones
[13:36:48] <mps> ah, yes, https://olimex.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/open-source-technology-based-micro-satellite-fly-in-space-for-almost-year/
[13:41:27] <jonas> mps: if you want to try out lightweight options for Olimex boards, then maybe you will find my https://box.redpill.dk/ helpful - they are tailored for the LIME2 and ARM64 boards (and the TERES-I laptop kit) with options to install desktop without GTK and Qt widgets
[14:13:37] <mps> jonas: no, I don't need them as desktops, just wonder
[14:14:24] <mps> I'm using arm chromebooks for about 5 years now as desktops
[14:15:17] <mps> thought to buy Teres but display is small resolution for my needs
[14:50:07] <adjtm_> diego71, thanks for the info, I thought that ti also discontinued sitara
[14:50:29] <adjtm_> it seems it has one armv8 SOC in dual and quad core versions
[14:51:39] <adjtm_> even being too old and limited, Mali 400 from Allwinner A20 is better than PowerVR from OMAP/Sitara from a free software point of view
[14:53:52] <adjtm_> mps, "desktop" is a very wide definition, Lime2 can handle light desktops with light browsing
[14:54:37] <adjtm_> in my experience slower part of running desktop on Lime2 is the storage, if you run it from an sdcard
[14:55:43] <adjtm_> A1 class sdcard is the minimum to have a decent performance
[14:56:37] <jonas> there is zero benefit in paying extra for A2 sdcard - A1 and A2 behave identical on these boards
[14:56:38] <adjtm_> most "fast" sdcards are only fast in sequential read/write typical of cameras
[14:56:56] <adjtm_> jonas, yes that's also my conclusion
[14:57:06] <adjtm_> I always use A1 cards
[14:58:36] <adjtm_> not only SBC, on the chromebooks I have tested them there is no difference between the A1 and A2 sdcards I tried
[14:58:40] <jonas> right - didn't mean to imply that you wrote otherwise, only wanted to "fill in the blanks" that might mislead to different conclusion
[14:58:47] <adjtm_> yes
[14:59:15] <adjtm_> I really don't know if there are SBC or chromeos devices where A2 are faster
[14:59:24] <adjtm_> it could be
[15:02:03] <mps> well, I run quite fine desktop from mmc cards, not fast as ssd but not slow
[15:02:51] <mps> on acer R13 chromebook runinig from internal emmc is really fast
[15:02:55] <jonas> I _avoid_ A2: according to Wikipedia, "A2 class cards require host driver support as they use command queuing and write caching to achieve their higher speeds. If used in an unsupported host, they might even be slower than other A1 cards, and if power is lost before cached data is actually written from the card's internal RAM to the card's internal flash RAM, that data is likely to be lost.["
[15:03:58] <mps> jonas: I think latest kernels have improvements to this
[15:04:23] <jonas> to the need for host driver support?
[15:05:21] <mps> didn't read carefully kernel log so not sure
[15:06:20] <mps> but I use for about 5 years my chromebooks from e/mmc and I'm quite satisfied
[15:07:10] <mps> but if I need intesive FS work (compiling big software) I use ssd disk over usb adapter
[15:10:50] <adjtm_> mps, I have several olinuxino boards buy all without emmc
[15:11:07] <adjtm_> in chromebooks linux runs faster on the internal emmc than on A1 sdcards
[15:11:30] <adjtm_> I meant all my olinuxino boards don't have emmc
[15:15:15] <jonas> mps: yes there has certainly been improvements to linux efficiency of accessing eMMC and SD cards - and yes, eMMC is likely (depending on exact chip, obviously) faster than fastest A1 SD cards
[15:16:55] <jonas> ...but I doubt there are any linux improvements that could make A2 cards more relevant than A1 cards, because the added benefits of A2 is tied to changes in wiring and therefore require SD card reader with more wires than those in Olimx boards
[15:17:06] <jonas> ...as I understand it
[15:17:44] <jonas> obviously I would be happy to be proved wrong - speed boosts are always welcome :-)
[15:18:52] <mps> jonas: I didn't wanted to say that A2 is faster than A1, sorry if my messages suggested this
[15:29:31] <adjtm_> I like how polite is this channel
[15:29:38] <jonas> ah, makes sense now: your "this" referred not to my notes on A1 versus A2, but to your own notes on eMMC :-)
[15:30:28] <jonas> adjtm_: I remembered to eat breakfast today, so am not snapping at folks ;-)
IRC #olimex 2021-08-31
[02:11:58] <abetusk> Hi, sorry for the stupid question, but can someone point me to a good "raspberry pi equivalent" board on Olimex, preferably OSH? I mostly want a single board computer with some USB, reasonable speed and reasonable memory, enough to run a decent-ish linux machine, perhaps with hdmi out[02:30:35] <jonas> abetusk: LIME2
[02:31:44] <abetusk> jonas, thanks
[02:31:45] <jonas> that's the battletested board in that category - if you want something more powerful and less strongly tested, then the A64
[02:32:11] <jonas> you might find this helpful: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware
[02:37:10] <adjtm> abetusk, +1 for LIME2
[02:37:53] <adjtm> not that there are many OSH, not just from Olimex but from anyone
[02:39:11] <adjtm> Lime2 has 1GB RAM + 1Gbit ethernet vs 512MB and 100Mbit ethernet for Lime
[02:39:18] <adjtm> so I strongly recommend Lime2
[02:39:35] <abetusk> yeah, lime2 looks pretty good. I completely forgot about the beagleboards
[02:39:46] <abetusk> so I guess they're also an option
[02:40:11] <adjtm> SATA is also very nice if you need a lot of storage with decent performance and reliability
[02:41:54] <adjtm> the main downside for me (not very important) is that it's armv7, and this days armv8 has better support and is more future proof
[02:43:06] <abetusk> So there's basically two OSH alternatives to RPi...Olimex and Beagleboard?
[02:45:34] <adjtm> BeagleBone was very popular many years ago, omap had very good free software support but texas instrument discontinued their omap socs and I don't think that there is so much community around it like there is for allwinner socs
[02:53:00] <abetusk> ah interesting
[02:53:12] <abetusk> pretty sad state of affairs. I'm glad Olimex exists
[09:25:30] <diego71> adjtm_: omap was substitute with sitara that is almost the same chip
[09:27:20] <diego71> modern beagle board use sitara version of the chip
[13:10:33] <mps> so, running desktop on arm32 with 1GB ram, I wonder does this makes sense nowadays
[13:11:59] <mps> though I tested Xorg on nokia n900 which have 512MB ram
[13:25:53] <ghane> as long as you dont need modern web browsing...
[13:27:34] <mps> ghane: and 'you' don't need modern web browsing' nowadays :)
[13:30:28] <ghane> :-D
[13:31:31] <ghane> CDE on OpenBSD runns quite nice on the Lime ;)
[13:32:17] <mps> so awesome wm with linux could work also
[13:33:16] <mps> btw, iirc I read somewhere some time ago that olimex boards are used in some space satelites. Is that true and if on which ones
[13:36:48] <mps> ah, yes, https://olimex.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/open-source-technology-based-micro-satellite-fly-in-space-for-almost-year/
[13:41:27] <jonas> mps: if you want to try out lightweight options for Olimex boards, then maybe you will find my https://box.redpill.dk/ helpful - they are tailored for the LIME2 and ARM64 boards (and the TERES-I laptop kit) with options to install desktop without GTK and Qt widgets
[14:13:37] <mps> jonas: no, I don't need them as desktops, just wonder
[14:14:24] <mps> I'm using arm chromebooks for about 5 years now as desktops
[14:15:17] <mps> thought to buy Teres but display is small resolution for my needs
[14:50:07] <adjtm_> diego71, thanks for the info, I thought that ti also discontinued sitara
[14:50:29] <adjtm_> it seems it has one armv8 SOC in dual and quad core versions
[14:51:39] <adjtm_> even being too old and limited, Mali 400 from Allwinner A20 is better than PowerVR from OMAP/Sitara from a free software point of view
[14:53:52] <adjtm_> mps, "desktop" is a very wide definition, Lime2 can handle light desktops with light browsing
[14:54:37] <adjtm_> in my experience slower part of running desktop on Lime2 is the storage, if you run it from an sdcard
[14:55:43] <adjtm_> A1 class sdcard is the minimum to have a decent performance
[14:56:37] <jonas> there is zero benefit in paying extra for A2 sdcard - A1 and A2 behave identical on these boards
[14:56:38] <adjtm_> most "fast" sdcards are only fast in sequential read/write typical of cameras
[14:56:56] <adjtm_> jonas, yes that's also my conclusion
[14:57:06] <adjtm_> I always use A1 cards
[14:58:36] <adjtm_> not only SBC, on the chromebooks I have tested them there is no difference between the A1 and A2 sdcards I tried
[14:58:40] <jonas> right - didn't mean to imply that you wrote otherwise, only wanted to "fill in the blanks" that might mislead to different conclusion
[14:58:47] <adjtm_> yes
[14:59:15] <adjtm_> I really don't know if there are SBC or chromeos devices where A2 are faster
[14:59:24] <adjtm_> it could be
[15:02:03] <mps> well, I run quite fine desktop from mmc cards, not fast as ssd but not slow
[15:02:51] <mps> on acer R13 chromebook runinig from internal emmc is really fast
[15:02:55] <jonas> I _avoid_ A2: according to Wikipedia, "A2 class cards require host driver support as they use command queuing and write caching to achieve their higher speeds. If used in an unsupported host, they might even be slower than other A1 cards, and if power is lost before cached data is actually written from the card's internal RAM to the card's internal flash RAM, that data is likely to be lost.["
[15:03:58] <mps> jonas: I think latest kernels have improvements to this
[15:04:23] <jonas> to the need for host driver support?
[15:05:21] <mps> didn't read carefully kernel log so not sure
[15:06:20] <mps> but I use for about 5 years my chromebooks from e/mmc and I'm quite satisfied
[15:07:10] <mps> but if I need intesive FS work (compiling big software) I use ssd disk over usb adapter
[15:10:50] <adjtm_> mps, I have several olinuxino boards buy all without emmc
[15:11:07] <adjtm_> in chromebooks linux runs faster on the internal emmc than on A1 sdcards
[15:11:30] <adjtm_> I meant all my olinuxino boards don't have emmc
[15:15:15] <jonas> mps: yes there has certainly been improvements to linux efficiency of accessing eMMC and SD cards - and yes, eMMC is likely (depending on exact chip, obviously) faster than fastest A1 SD cards
[15:16:55] <jonas> ...but I doubt there are any linux improvements that could make A2 cards more relevant than A1 cards, because the added benefits of A2 is tied to changes in wiring and therefore require SD card reader with more wires than those in Olimx boards
[15:17:06] <jonas> ...as I understand it
[15:17:44] <jonas> obviously I would be happy to be proved wrong - speed boosts are always welcome :-)
[15:18:52] <mps> jonas: I didn't wanted to say that A2 is faster than A1, sorry if my messages suggested this
[15:29:31] <adjtm_> I like how polite is this channel
[15:29:38] <jonas> ah, makes sense now: your "this" referred not to my notes on A1 versus A2, but to your own notes on eMMC :-)
[15:30:28] <jonas> adjtm_: I remembered to eat breakfast today, so am not snapping at folks ;-)
