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[16:14:11] <guest_____> hi
[16:15:35] <guest_____> can the sitara am 3352 be programmed with the olimex ocd-h programmer/debugger for use without OS ?
[16:15:50] <guest_____> and what adapter do i need?
[16:20:29] <guest_____> hey...little help here....pretty please?
[16:30:33] <lukas2511> maybe... ;)
[16:31:12] <guest_____> hhey it's me the guy with the imx233
[16:31:17] <lukas2511> don't really see a reason why it wouldn't work
[16:31:25] <lukas2511> oh no not that guy again... ;)
[16:31:34] <guest_____> yeah that guy\
[16:31:47] <guest_____> i docummented a little
[16:32:17] <guest_____> and i am trying to give sitara look
[16:33:06] <lukas2511> i kinda like those chips
[16:34:23] <lukas2511> i'd suggest just buying the beaglebone (the old white one) to experiment with that chip, has everything you need to get started on board
[16:34:33] <guest_____> and there is a readily avaiable platform from olimex too untill i will dive into a custom one...wth a pci terminal
[16:34:41] <guest_____> except not too many pins
[16:34:58] <guest_____> on the beagle bone
[16:35:29] <lukas2511> there are quite a lot of pins
[16:35:38] <guest_____> on the olimex board there are plenty...512mb of ram are sufficient i believe
[16:35:48] <lukas2511> i think i counted about 60 usable ones
[16:36:03] <guest_____> are those enough for pci stuff?
[16:36:16] <lukas2511> i didn't read the pci specification
[16:37:02] <guest_____> what i haven't found is the pin toggle rate of the SOM with this chip on it
[16:38:03] <guest_____> what the toggle rate on the beagle bone by the way?...as i stated eons ago...i will stil need to hook it to the pci bus
[16:38:26] <guest_____> including vga use at the same time
[16:39:38] <lukas2511> well, you probably would do that communication stuff inside one or both of the PRUs, without any logic it looks like ~20ns for switching
[16:41:15] <lukas2511> that would be about 50 MHz, with some luck you could get that to the 30ns you seem to need for pci, but you have to do all your logic in those 10ns
[16:41:52] <lukas2511> i'd still suggest going fpga :D
[16:44:18] <guest_____> that is just great...a 1 ghz cpu cannot handle a 33 mhz bus ...lovely...
[16:45:11] <lukas2511> it's a general purpose cpu, what are you expecting? it is not designed for something like this
[16:46:17] <lukas2511> not sure if you get better results with DMA or something instead of toggling manually, you'd have to read the chip specs for that
[16:46:18] <guest_____> than why do they advertize the 1 gig clock?....of course i don't want to demote gtx980 with this
[16:46:29] <lukas2511> because it's 1 gig clock
[16:46:42] <lukas2511> but it's still a general purpose cpu
[16:47:01] <lukas2511> like in a desktop system, but a lot more slim, with less highspeed bus connections and features
[16:47:19] <guest_____> and what's the use for a 1ghz vibrator pun unintended ...if i can not use that frequency?
[16:47:33] <lukas2511> i mean, look at your cpu, it probably can do a turboboost at around 4 Ghz or whatever, and your gpu may run at 900Mhz, still your gpu calculates stuff thousand times faster than your cpu
[16:47:39] <guest_____> just to show a 1 ghz in a benchmark ?
[16:47:46] <lukas2511> no, you can use it for software
[16:47:55] <guest_____> i do not want to make a gtx 980
[16:48:06] <lukas2511> not all subsystems are running at the same base clock
[16:48:10] <lukas2511> the core itself is
[16:48:25] <guest_____> i want to reach the level of a trio 64 pci card
[16:48:28] <lukas2511> you also have limitations in terms of memory clock
[16:48:36] <guest_____> with 512 mb of memory of course
[16:48:59] <guest_____> i do not want heavy resolutions
[16:49:13] <guest_____> 800x600 would be ok at 30 fps
[16:49:25] <guest_____> 16 bit color
[16:49:41] <lukas2511> please just read the documentations for the chips you are looking at, and read the specs for pci graphics
[16:50:32] <guest_____> so...can the olimex debugger program the sitara chip without the use of u boot ?
[16:51:15] <lukas2511> if you want to do something like this you will either need something that is specifically designed to be a pci device, or something that is extremely overpowered and super expensive, or you just do the communication inside of an fpga or a fast microcontroller that is designed for gpio usage (stm32f4xx is probably fast enough)
[16:51:30] <lukas2511> probably, read the docs
[16:51:40] <lukas2511> you will need to read them anyway, to see how exactly to connect it
[16:51:44] <lukas2511> so why not just do that now?
[16:58:05] <guest_____> ok...i might find a proto board with this chip on but...if the sitara isnt able to keep up with the pci that means every chip on the market untill now that claims to have "1 ghz" and is cheaper than a few hundred bucks is just a big bs
[16:58:15] <guest_____> am i right or wrong?
[16:58:27] <lukas2511> you still don't understand what a general purpose cpu is
[16:58:43] <guest_____> oh...i forgot...it is general purpose
[16:59:02] <lukas2511> this thing runs at 1ghz, you can run your applications at 1ghz, but the subsystems like gpio are not running at 1ghz
[16:59:03] <guest_____> an atom cpu is general purpose too lukas
[16:59:15] <guest_____> and it commands the pci bus
[16:59:24] <lukas2511> yes, because it has a pci subsystem
[16:59:29] <lukas2511> it has this as a feature
[16:59:37] <lukas2511> it doesn't do this over gpio
[17:00:08] <lukas2511> look up the specs of the chips you are looking at
[17:00:51] <guest_____> forget that notion of gpio lukas..it was put there just as a marketing bs...a pin should be a pin and that's it...shouldn't be?
[17:01:04] <lukas2511> no.
[17:01:11] <lukas2511> that is not how it works
[17:01:21] <guest_____> ok...what you are saying is that pci development cost from a 1 grand up and thats it
[17:01:44] <lukas2511> you probably can do pci with a 40$ fpga dev board without any problems
[17:01:53] <lukas2511> pcie probably 1 grand up
[17:02:04] <guest_____> nonetheless a 50 dollar production thing i want to produce
[17:02:22] <guest_____> lukas...you gotta be kidding me...
[17:02:43] <lukas2511> what?
[17:02:46] <Coolya> this is fun :D
[17:03:01] <guest_____> how can you even think like that?????
[17:03:23] <lukas2511> ?
[17:03:28] <lukas2511> i mean
[17:03:30] <maxime_> oh, so there are people reading messages here actually :)
[17:03:38] <lukas2511> you could have a chip, that could do all of the stuff you want
[17:03:52] <guest_____> i have seen 2 dollar pci sound cards
[17:03:57] <lukas2511> yes
[17:04:00] <guest_____> netwrok cards and other stuff
[17:04:01] <lukas2511> you know how that works?
[17:04:12] <guest_____> closed and proprietary of course
[17:04:26] <lukas2511> custom chips, in large quantity, that nobody wants anymore, and that get sold for lot less than they actually cost
[17:04:33] <guest_____> yeah i know...but what are WE doing about it?
[17:04:45] <lukas2511> you can do chip development, but like 100k chips, and you'd probably get away with a few dollars per card
[17:04:49] <lukas2511> *buy like
[17:05:18] <guest_____> i cannot do that if 1 unit cost 1 grand
[17:05:55] <lukas2511> the software for chip dev alone costs even a little bit more ;)
[17:06:07] <lukas2511> i think last time i looked it up the cheapest one was ~14k$
[17:06:15] <lukas2511> per year
[17:06:25] <guest_____> of course i am thinking of big production after the prototype is being made but the prototype musn't cost more than 50 or 100 euros
[17:06:32] <lukas2511> hahahaha
[17:06:39] <Coolya> lol
[17:06:51] <Coolya> add three zeros to that
[17:06:55] <lukas2511> you maybe can achieve that with a small fpga and a little arm controller
[17:07:14] <lukas2511> fpga for doing highspeed communication, arm for calculation
[17:07:31] <lukas2511> maybe even do everything inside the fpga, actually there is an fpga gpu project somewhere
[17:07:37] <lukas2511> and there probably are pci cores
[17:07:38] <guest_____> lukas get down from that piedestal you are on...your ego got too big...even if you are in the big league
[17:07:47] <lukas2511> ?
[17:08:07] <guest_____> well you were laughing...why?
[17:08:13] <lukas2511> i'm a little student sitting at my parents basement, i have the same problems like you, i'm just saying how it is ;)
[17:08:41] <guest_____> yes...but as i said what are WE going to do about it?
[17:09:10] <lukas2511> i don't think we can do anything about it? it's about development time / man hours for developing things, that costs money
[17:11:02] <lukas2511> also it sounds like you still don't have any idea what exactly you are dealing with. i still suggest that you read the specs for what you are trying to achieve, and read documentation about chips you are looking at.
[17:11:34] <lukas2511> it will probably take you a few weeks alone to read and understand what you are dealing with, after that you can continue searching for a good solution
[17:11:36] <guest_____> i am going to use that stm chip you suggested...but how to connect a sitara chip ?...you know what?...this chip might not even handle graphics....and a simple "hello world" doesnt worth the 30 euros they are asking for the SOM
[17:11:43] <lukas2511> don't just buy something and hope that it works
[17:11:47] <guest_____> AM I ON THE RIGHT TRACK HERE?
[17:11:56] <guest_____> sorry abut the caps there
[17:12:04] <lukas2511> the stm _might_ be able to just barely do pci
[17:12:06] <guest_____> wrong key press
[17:12:31] <lukas2511> but i didn't even read the pci spec, i just looked up the base clock
[17:12:40] <guest_____> it has real time 84 mhz according to the datasheet
[17:12:48] <lukas2511> there might be some voodoo going on in the communication. so: read the spec.
[17:12:50] <guest_____> i did
[17:13:03] <guest_____> its 33 mhz...and 66mhz
[17:14:07] <lukas2511> what type of communication? is it parallel? serial? differential connections? what voltages? are there any additional connections to just data? does the pci bus give you a clock?
[17:14:21] <guest_____> parallel it seems
[17:14:36] <lukas2511> tolerances? error correction? .....
[17:14:46] <lukas2511> there is a lot more than just "oh it's 33 mhz
[17:14:47] <lukas2511> "
[17:15:31] <lukas2511> that's like saying "It's a unix system, i know this." and hacking into door controls or something
[17:15:33] <guest_____> i do not plan to fully comply with the specification....all i want for now is to make the pc recognize my contraption..when i built it
[17:15:39] <lukas2511> uhm
[17:15:46] <lukas2511> that is not how that works :D
[17:16:08] <lukas2511> first you need to be in spec of pci itself, otherwise you won't be able to do anything at all
[17:16:34] <lukas2511> and after you got that you need to be in spec of pci graphics, and a specific gpu model
[17:17:28] <lukas2511> those docs should be fairly easy to find, and are probably only a few thousand pages each, so with a little bit of time you'll know what exactly you need, and then you can look for a good chip to deal with it
[17:19:00] <lukas2511> for the last step of actually implementing the gpu itself i'd kinda suggest reading parts of the linux kernel source and using that as a reference of what you really need to implement, and what can go wrong without the system freezing or similar
[17:19:50] <lukas2511> that worked quite well for other things i did in the past, and is a lot easier than reading a spec and trying to implement from there, especially because you might also want to be bug-compatible
[17:19:52] <guest_____> so the allmighty sitara3352 falls like a timber ain't it? even if i connect it to the pci bus accordingly...it will fail
[17:20:16] <guest_____> i was going to implement the gpu in the sitara chip
[17:20:16] <lukas2511> if you get a pci connection with that chip, the rest should work on that chip too
[17:20:55] <lukas2511> you can try doing pci communication in the PRUs, and doing calculations on the main cpu
[17:21:09] <guest_____> by the way where can i find a prototype board with pci slot in europe?
[17:21:25] <lukas2511> the specs for pci should contain mechanical specs
[17:21:29] <guest_____> i have a few old motherboards that are ready to blow up
[17:21:36] <lukas2511> so just take those and design a small pcb
[17:22:02] <lukas2511> or use an old pci card and cut all traces and solder small wires to the connector
[17:22:13] <lukas2511> should be good for prototyping
[17:22:23] <guest_____> i do not plan to build it myself and i saw something at futurlec...but with the vat and other tax it aint cut it for my budget
[17:22:28] <lukas2511> at 33mhz those wires can probably be a few cm long without any problems
[17:23:26] <guest_____> i have seen something in europe but 70 euros are too much for just a board
[17:23:56] <lukas2511> i don't think you'll find a ready made board for under 100€, it's something not many people would try to do, so you probably can also get prototyping boards for research stuff, and those will probably be expensive
[17:23:59] <guest_____> at futurlec is 13 bucks
[17:24:13] <guest_____> i wonder if olimex builds these things
[17:24:46] <guest_____> i found it at 70 but i think is too much
[17:25:11] <guest_____> at farnell i believe
[17:25:27] <lukas2511> also you didn't read the specs of what you are looking at, again
[17:26:03] <lukas2511> as i said, just for the connector, use a knife with an old pci card
[17:26:10] <lukas2511> that's the best you can get for virtually no money at all
[17:27:11] <lukas2511> you know what would be easier and cheaper?
[17:27:18] <lukas2511> build a usb gpu
[17:28:03] <guest_____> my soldering beyound 0.5 mm is dangerous not just for the parts safety but for mine too :))
[17:28:20] <lukas2511> uhm
[17:28:36] <lukas2511> well, soldering is something you will need for prototyping
[17:28:48] <guest_____> it would be a good ideea....but what usb chip to use
[17:29:07] <lukas2511> no first prototype is comming without problems, almost all first prototypes (and sometimes even boards in production) need extra solder work by hand
[17:29:37] <lukas2511> uh, maybe just use an olimex board? imx233 should be able to handle usb otg, also a20 and the cpu in the beaglebone black does too
[17:29:44] <lukas2511> you'd just have to write software
[17:29:52] <lukas2511> no soldering at all
[17:29:55] <lukas2511> no pcb designing
[17:30:28] <lukas2511> nothing hardware related other than plugging in a usb cable
[17:30:40] <lukas2511> and vga or hdmi or whatever
[17:36:23] <guest_____> i dont want o buy an a20 beacause it has a gpu which i cannot use fully
[17:36:42] <guest_____> so the sitara still stands
[17:37:25] <guest_____> i want to be able to develop a small 3d accelerator afterwards
[17:40:10] <guest_____> this might be a good solution:
[17:40:15] <guest_____> https://www.olimex.com/Products/SOM/AM3352/AM3352-SOM-EVB/open-source-hardware
[17:40:27] <guest_____> is it?
[17:41:09] <guest_____> just to develop vga stuff strictly...forget the pci shite for now
[17:41:56] <guest_____> and how am i going to program the board without linux ? with what programmer ?
[17:42:27] <lukas2511> 1. think what you want to do, 2. look up what you need to do for that (read specs), 3. look up if board can do what you want (read docs)
[17:42:33] <lukas2511> it's not that hard
[17:46:12] <guest_____> fact...i am a newbie...that's for shure....money...not so much either...i want to buy a board that can get me as close as possible to the goal by not spending sums with three zeros and beyound
[17:48:47] <guest_____> thanks for now...i will contact olimex directly abot the board i lniked earlier
[17:49:05] <guest_____> and i will come with conclusions
[18:02:42] <adj_> wow, a pin is just a pin...
[18:03:07] <adj_> if gpio pins worked at ddr4 speed world would be beautiful
[18:04:27] <Coolya> :D
[18:05:35] <tbr> yes please, I also want to be able to bitbang DDR4 at full spec speed with my RPi revA
[18:05:36] <guest_____> the only thing that stps them (the pins ) doing that is the company's management
[18:06:15] <adj_> guest_____, you don't know much about electronics, I'm afraid
[18:06:50] <guest_____> and you don't know much about management and politics
[18:07:03] <guest_____> and money for that matter
[18:07:16] <tbr> ACTION fines guest_____ for violating the laws of physics
[18:07:43] <guest_____> why violate them for?
[18:08:23] <guest_____> when a cpu has a clock of 1 ghz i expect a pin toggle at atleast 100 mhz
[18:08:58] <adj_> guest_____, the max speed you would get out with this boards without pcie is probably the gigabit ethernet of olinuixno lime2 or similar
[18:09:07] <guest_____> and that happens only for the proprietary stuff...it is not physics violation or other gibberish like that
[18:09:39] <guest_____> i do not need pcie
[18:09:43] <adj_> what toggles at 1GHz are some transistors and traces _inside_ the cpu
[18:10:09] <guest_____> simple pci would be sufficient
[18:10:45] <adj_> buy a board with pcie, like some freescale imx6
[18:11:13] <Coolya> but he doesn't want to spent more then 30 bucks ... ;)
[18:11:34] <guest_____> i do not know if the Microchip solved their problems with the pic32mz
[18:11:42] <adj_> guest_____, is 450Mb/s enough for you?
[18:12:03] <guest_____> coolya..you are not being cool man
[18:12:43] <adj_> 450Mb/s enough?
[18:12:46] <guest_____> usb doesnt go up to the specs adj_ and you know it
[18:13:02] <guest_____> you cannot build a video card with that speed
[18:13:03] <adj_> who talk about usb
[18:13:04] <adj_> ?
[18:13:30] <guest_____> you said 450Mb not MB
[18:13:44] <adj_> yes, that was what a mean
[18:13:47] <guest_____> i know usb spec is 480
[18:13:59] <guest_____> but anyhow
[18:14:16] <guest_____> what do you suggest
[18:14:18] <guest_____> ?
[18:15:25] <guest_____> yes it would be enough if i could get that on just one pin of an 8 bit port of the chip
[18:16:19] <guest_____> adj_ ....i am waiting:|.....i am dying of curiosity :)
[18:17:54] <guest_____> and if the chip is on an allready made olimex board...it woulod be ecstatic even:)
[18:18:00] <Coolya> guest_____: hm? I just repeated what you said earlier? Anyway you can't expect to get a prototyping board cheaper then the actual endproduct
[18:18:50] <adj_> guest_____, http://www.latticesemi.com/en/Products/DevelopmentBoardsAndKits/iCEstick.aspx
[18:19:02] <guest_____> i allready have an idea how to get the speed up with some high speed multiplexers
[18:19:23] <guest_____> i am wondering why no one mentioned that
[18:19:24] <lukas2511> lol
[18:19:38] <lukas2511> i have a better idea
[18:19:53] <lukas2511> why don't you just try bending the laws of physics, just a tiny bit, i mean, that may work
[18:19:58] <guest_____> it would be cheating but hey..if it works it works
[18:20:29] <guest_____> lukas you do not need to bend the laws of physics..what is wrong with you?
[18:20:58] <lukas2511> just make the time around your board run faster than outside of that time bubble, infinite speedup!
[18:21:11] <lukas2511> how exactly would you imagine a highspeed multiplexer to work?
[18:21:28] <lukas2511> those are multiplexers, not magical boost devices
[18:21:42] <adj_> guest_____, it doesn't exist in 2015 what you are looking for
[18:22:05] <lukas2511> those can do that you only need 1 pin on your chip, and control 8 in- or outputs, at 1/8 of the speed
[18:22:18] <lukas2511> (or n at 1/n of the speed)
[18:22:35] <guest_____> yeah but the magic comes form the keys i press when i program the thing
[18:23:44] <lukas2511> yea go do your magic, show us all how it works, maybe we'll all learn something
[18:24:42] <guest_____> that is why i came here for advice concerning the best olimex board that i can buy....the rest i will take care by myself
[18:25:09] <guest_____> well it was a figure of speech lukas...it is not magic...is more like logic
[18:25:17] <lukas2511> adj_: btw those i.MX6 chips look sweet, are there any preferred cheap devboards?
[18:25:54] <adj_> "my preferred board" is novena
[18:26:01] <adj_> it has a fpga
[18:26:12] <lukas2511> haha okay
[18:26:29] <adj_> you can get something like wandboard or hummingboard
[18:26:35] <lukas2511> just for playing around the novena was a little bit to expensive for my taste
[18:26:50] <adj_> but not all imx6 has pcie interface
[18:26:57] <lukas2511> yea i looked at the specs
[18:27:13] <adj_> also riotboard
[18:27:21] <adj_> probably the cheapest
[18:27:26] <lukas2511> thanks, i'll have a look at those boards
[18:27:30] <adj_> but the one core version
[18:27:50] <lukas2511> don't really need pcie, would only be nicetohave, probably would never use it
[18:28:37] <lukas2511> but yea mh single core is... i don't know
[18:29:47] <adj_> guest_____, just buy a lime2 board, play with the gpio, try to produce vga signals, and learn
[18:30:52] <lukas2511> mh those i.MX6 boards are all a little bit too expensive for just playing around with them, too bad
[18:31:38] <adj_> yes imx6 boards are expensive
[18:31:56] <adj_> imx6 socs are expensive
[18:32:02] <lukas2511> yea i see
[18:32:05] <adj_> at least compared with allwinner and similar
[18:32:08] <adj_> see you
[18:32:49] <lukas2511> the hummingboard seems to be the best option, but that board... well i guess you get what you pay for
[18:32:51] <guest_____> i thought about that but can lime boards be programmed bare metal...whithout using an os?
[18:58:39] <maxime_> guest_____:no
[18:59:38] <guest_____> that means i'l stick to sitara am 3352 for now
[19:00:20] <guest_____> can sitara am3352 be programmed bare metal with the olimex ocd-h ?
[19:00:45] <guest_____> and with what adapter?
[19:01:27] <guest_____> and debugged of course
[19:01:28] <guest_____> ?
[19:13:10] <maxime_> bye bye guys and girls
[19:13:46] <maxime_> weekend time ! \_o<
IRC #olimex 2015-06-05
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[16:14:11] <guest_____> hi
[16:15:35] <guest_____> can the sitara am 3352 be programmed with the olimex ocd-h programmer/debugger for use without OS ?
[16:15:50] <guest_____> and what adapter do i need?
[16:20:29] <guest_____> hey...little help here....pretty please?
[16:30:33] <lukas2511> maybe... ;)
[16:31:12] <guest_____> hhey it's me the guy with the imx233
[16:31:17] <lukas2511> don't really see a reason why it wouldn't work
[16:31:25] <lukas2511> oh no not that guy again... ;)
[16:31:34] <guest_____> yeah that guy\
[16:31:47] <guest_____> i docummented a little
[16:32:17] <guest_____> and i am trying to give sitara look
[16:33:06] <lukas2511> i kinda like those chips
[16:34:23] <lukas2511> i'd suggest just buying the beaglebone (the old white one) to experiment with that chip, has everything you need to get started on board
[16:34:33] <guest_____> and there is a readily avaiable platform from olimex too untill i will dive into a custom one...wth a pci terminal
[16:34:41] <guest_____> except not too many pins
[16:34:58] <guest_____> on the beagle bone
[16:35:29] <lukas2511> there are quite a lot of pins
[16:35:38] <guest_____> on the olimex board there are plenty...512mb of ram are sufficient i believe
[16:35:48] <lukas2511> i think i counted about 60 usable ones
[16:36:03] <guest_____> are those enough for pci stuff?
[16:36:16] <lukas2511> i didn't read the pci specification
[16:37:02] <guest_____> what i haven't found is the pin toggle rate of the SOM with this chip on it
[16:38:03] <guest_____> what the toggle rate on the beagle bone by the way?...as i stated eons ago...i will stil need to hook it to the pci bus
[16:38:26] <guest_____> including vga use at the same time
[16:39:38] <lukas2511> well, you probably would do that communication stuff inside one or both of the PRUs, without any logic it looks like ~20ns for switching
[16:41:15] <lukas2511> that would be about 50 MHz, with some luck you could get that to the 30ns you seem to need for pci, but you have to do all your logic in those 10ns
[16:41:52] <lukas2511> i'd still suggest going fpga :D
[16:44:18] <guest_____> that is just great...a 1 ghz cpu cannot handle a 33 mhz bus ...lovely...
[16:45:11] <lukas2511> it's a general purpose cpu, what are you expecting? it is not designed for something like this
[16:46:17] <lukas2511> not sure if you get better results with DMA or something instead of toggling manually, you'd have to read the chip specs for that
[16:46:18] <guest_____> than why do they advertize the 1 gig clock?....of course i don't want to demote gtx980 with this
[16:46:29] <lukas2511> because it's 1 gig clock
[16:46:42] <lukas2511> but it's still a general purpose cpu
[16:47:01] <lukas2511> like in a desktop system, but a lot more slim, with less highspeed bus connections and features
[16:47:19] <guest_____> and what's the use for a 1ghz vibrator pun unintended ...if i can not use that frequency?
[16:47:33] <lukas2511> i mean, look at your cpu, it probably can do a turboboost at around 4 Ghz or whatever, and your gpu may run at 900Mhz, still your gpu calculates stuff thousand times faster than your cpu
[16:47:39] <guest_____> just to show a 1 ghz in a benchmark ?
[16:47:46] <lukas2511> no, you can use it for software
[16:47:55] <guest_____> i do not want to make a gtx 980
[16:48:06] <lukas2511> not all subsystems are running at the same base clock
[16:48:10] <lukas2511> the core itself is
[16:48:25] <guest_____> i want to reach the level of a trio 64 pci card
[16:48:28] <lukas2511> you also have limitations in terms of memory clock
[16:48:36] <guest_____> with 512 mb of memory of course
[16:48:59] <guest_____> i do not want heavy resolutions
[16:49:13] <guest_____> 800x600 would be ok at 30 fps
[16:49:25] <guest_____> 16 bit color
[16:49:41] <lukas2511> please just read the documentations for the chips you are looking at, and read the specs for pci graphics
[16:50:32] <guest_____> so...can the olimex debugger program the sitara chip without the use of u boot ?
[16:51:15] <lukas2511> if you want to do something like this you will either need something that is specifically designed to be a pci device, or something that is extremely overpowered and super expensive, or you just do the communication inside of an fpga or a fast microcontroller that is designed for gpio usage (stm32f4xx is probably fast enough)
[16:51:30] <lukas2511> probably, read the docs
[16:51:40] <lukas2511> you will need to read them anyway, to see how exactly to connect it
[16:51:44] <lukas2511> so why not just do that now?
[16:58:05] <guest_____> ok...i might find a proto board with this chip on but...if the sitara isnt able to keep up with the pci that means every chip on the market untill now that claims to have "1 ghz" and is cheaper than a few hundred bucks is just a big bs
[16:58:15] <guest_____> am i right or wrong?
[16:58:27] <lukas2511> you still don't understand what a general purpose cpu is
[16:58:43] <guest_____> oh...i forgot...it is general purpose
[16:59:02] <lukas2511> this thing runs at 1ghz, you can run your applications at 1ghz, but the subsystems like gpio are not running at 1ghz
[16:59:03] <guest_____> an atom cpu is general purpose too lukas
[16:59:15] <guest_____> and it commands the pci bus
[16:59:24] <lukas2511> yes, because it has a pci subsystem
[16:59:29] <lukas2511> it has this as a feature
[16:59:37] <lukas2511> it doesn't do this over gpio
[17:00:08] <lukas2511> look up the specs of the chips you are looking at
[17:00:51] <guest_____> forget that notion of gpio lukas..it was put there just as a marketing bs...a pin should be a pin and that's it...shouldn't be?
[17:01:04] <lukas2511> no.
[17:01:11] <lukas2511> that is not how it works
[17:01:21] <guest_____> ok...what you are saying is that pci development cost from a 1 grand up and thats it
[17:01:44] <lukas2511> you probably can do pci with a 40$ fpga dev board without any problems
[17:01:53] <lukas2511> pcie probably 1 grand up
[17:02:04] <guest_____> nonetheless a 50 dollar production thing i want to produce
[17:02:22] <guest_____> lukas...you gotta be kidding me...
[17:02:43] <lukas2511> what?
[17:02:46] <Coolya> this is fun :D
[17:03:01] <guest_____> how can you even think like that?????
[17:03:23] <lukas2511> ?
[17:03:28] <lukas2511> i mean
[17:03:30] <maxime_> oh, so there are people reading messages here actually :)
[17:03:38] <lukas2511> you could have a chip, that could do all of the stuff you want
[17:03:52] <guest_____> i have seen 2 dollar pci sound cards
[17:03:57] <lukas2511> yes
[17:04:00] <guest_____> netwrok cards and other stuff
[17:04:01] <lukas2511> you know how that works?
[17:04:12] <guest_____> closed and proprietary of course
[17:04:26] <lukas2511> custom chips, in large quantity, that nobody wants anymore, and that get sold for lot less than they actually cost
[17:04:33] <guest_____> yeah i know...but what are WE doing about it?
[17:04:45] <lukas2511> you can do chip development, but like 100k chips, and you'd probably get away with a few dollars per card
[17:04:49] <lukas2511> *buy like
[17:05:18] <guest_____> i cannot do that if 1 unit cost 1 grand
[17:05:55] <lukas2511> the software for chip dev alone costs even a little bit more ;)
[17:06:07] <lukas2511> i think last time i looked it up the cheapest one was ~14k$
[17:06:15] <lukas2511> per year
[17:06:25] <guest_____> of course i am thinking of big production after the prototype is being made but the prototype musn't cost more than 50 or 100 euros
[17:06:32] <lukas2511> hahahaha
[17:06:39] <Coolya> lol
[17:06:51] <Coolya> add three zeros to that
[17:06:55] <lukas2511> you maybe can achieve that with a small fpga and a little arm controller
[17:07:14] <lukas2511> fpga for doing highspeed communication, arm for calculation
[17:07:31] <lukas2511> maybe even do everything inside the fpga, actually there is an fpga gpu project somewhere
[17:07:37] <lukas2511> and there probably are pci cores
[17:07:38] <guest_____> lukas get down from that piedestal you are on...your ego got too big...even if you are in the big league
[17:07:47] <lukas2511> ?
[17:08:07] <guest_____> well you were laughing...why?
[17:08:13] <lukas2511> i'm a little student sitting at my parents basement, i have the same problems like you, i'm just saying how it is ;)
[17:08:41] <guest_____> yes...but as i said what are WE going to do about it?
[17:09:10] <lukas2511> i don't think we can do anything about it? it's about development time / man hours for developing things, that costs money
[17:11:02] <lukas2511> also it sounds like you still don't have any idea what exactly you are dealing with. i still suggest that you read the specs for what you are trying to achieve, and read documentation about chips you are looking at.
[17:11:34] <lukas2511> it will probably take you a few weeks alone to read and understand what you are dealing with, after that you can continue searching for a good solution
[17:11:36] <guest_____> i am going to use that stm chip you suggested...but how to connect a sitara chip ?...you know what?...this chip might not even handle graphics....and a simple "hello world" doesnt worth the 30 euros they are asking for the SOM
[17:11:43] <lukas2511> don't just buy something and hope that it works
[17:11:47] <guest_____> AM I ON THE RIGHT TRACK HERE?
[17:11:56] <guest_____> sorry abut the caps there
[17:12:04] <lukas2511> the stm _might_ be able to just barely do pci
[17:12:06] <guest_____> wrong key press
[17:12:31] <lukas2511> but i didn't even read the pci spec, i just looked up the base clock
[17:12:40] <guest_____> it has real time 84 mhz according to the datasheet
[17:12:48] <lukas2511> there might be some voodoo going on in the communication. so: read the spec.
[17:12:50] <guest_____> i did
[17:13:03] <guest_____> its 33 mhz...and 66mhz
[17:14:07] <lukas2511> what type of communication? is it parallel? serial? differential connections? what voltages? are there any additional connections to just data? does the pci bus give you a clock?
[17:14:21] <guest_____> parallel it seems
[17:14:36] <lukas2511> tolerances? error correction? .....
[17:14:46] <lukas2511> there is a lot more than just "oh it's 33 mhz
[17:14:47] <lukas2511> "
[17:15:31] <lukas2511> that's like saying "It's a unix system, i know this." and hacking into door controls or something
[17:15:33] <guest_____> i do not plan to fully comply with the specification....all i want for now is to make the pc recognize my contraption..when i built it
[17:15:39] <lukas2511> uhm
[17:15:46] <lukas2511> that is not how that works :D
[17:16:08] <lukas2511> first you need to be in spec of pci itself, otherwise you won't be able to do anything at all
[17:16:34] <lukas2511> and after you got that you need to be in spec of pci graphics, and a specific gpu model
[17:17:28] <lukas2511> those docs should be fairly easy to find, and are probably only a few thousand pages each, so with a little bit of time you'll know what exactly you need, and then you can look for a good chip to deal with it
[17:19:00] <lukas2511> for the last step of actually implementing the gpu itself i'd kinda suggest reading parts of the linux kernel source and using that as a reference of what you really need to implement, and what can go wrong without the system freezing or similar
[17:19:50] <lukas2511> that worked quite well for other things i did in the past, and is a lot easier than reading a spec and trying to implement from there, especially because you might also want to be bug-compatible
[17:19:52] <guest_____> so the allmighty sitara3352 falls like a timber ain't it? even if i connect it to the pci bus accordingly...it will fail
[17:20:16] <guest_____> i was going to implement the gpu in the sitara chip
[17:20:16] <lukas2511> if you get a pci connection with that chip, the rest should work on that chip too
[17:20:55] <lukas2511> you can try doing pci communication in the PRUs, and doing calculations on the main cpu
[17:21:09] <guest_____> by the way where can i find a prototype board with pci slot in europe?
[17:21:25] <lukas2511> the specs for pci should contain mechanical specs
[17:21:29] <guest_____> i have a few old motherboards that are ready to blow up
[17:21:36] <lukas2511> so just take those and design a small pcb
[17:22:02] <lukas2511> or use an old pci card and cut all traces and solder small wires to the connector
[17:22:13] <lukas2511> should be good for prototyping
[17:22:23] <guest_____> i do not plan to build it myself and i saw something at futurlec...but with the vat and other tax it aint cut it for my budget
[17:22:28] <lukas2511> at 33mhz those wires can probably be a few cm long without any problems
[17:23:26] <guest_____> i have seen something in europe but 70 euros are too much for just a board
[17:23:56] <lukas2511> i don't think you'll find a ready made board for under 100€, it's something not many people would try to do, so you probably can also get prototyping boards for research stuff, and those will probably be expensive
[17:23:59] <guest_____> at futurlec is 13 bucks
[17:24:13] <guest_____> i wonder if olimex builds these things
[17:24:46] <guest_____> i found it at 70 but i think is too much
[17:25:11] <guest_____> at farnell i believe
[17:25:27] <lukas2511> also you didn't read the specs of what you are looking at, again
[17:26:03] <lukas2511> as i said, just for the connector, use a knife with an old pci card
[17:26:10] <lukas2511> that's the best you can get for virtually no money at all
[17:27:11] <lukas2511> you know what would be easier and cheaper?
[17:27:18] <lukas2511> build a usb gpu
[17:28:03] <guest_____> my soldering beyound 0.5 mm is dangerous not just for the parts safety but for mine too :))
[17:28:20] <lukas2511> uhm
[17:28:36] <lukas2511> well, soldering is something you will need for prototyping
[17:28:48] <guest_____> it would be a good ideea....but what usb chip to use
[17:29:07] <lukas2511> no first prototype is comming without problems, almost all first prototypes (and sometimes even boards in production) need extra solder work by hand
[17:29:37] <lukas2511> uh, maybe just use an olimex board? imx233 should be able to handle usb otg, also a20 and the cpu in the beaglebone black does too
[17:29:44] <lukas2511> you'd just have to write software
[17:29:52] <lukas2511> no soldering at all
[17:29:55] <lukas2511> no pcb designing
[17:30:28] <lukas2511> nothing hardware related other than plugging in a usb cable
[17:30:40] <lukas2511> and vga or hdmi or whatever
[17:36:23] <guest_____> i dont want o buy an a20 beacause it has a gpu which i cannot use fully
[17:36:42] <guest_____> so the sitara still stands
[17:37:25] <guest_____> i want to be able to develop a small 3d accelerator afterwards
[17:40:10] <guest_____> this might be a good solution:
[17:40:15] <guest_____> https://www.olimex.com/Products/SOM/AM3352/AM3352-SOM-EVB/open-source-hardware
[17:40:27] <guest_____> is it?
[17:41:09] <guest_____> just to develop vga stuff strictly...forget the pci shite for now
[17:41:56] <guest_____> and how am i going to program the board without linux ? with what programmer ?
[17:42:27] <lukas2511> 1. think what you want to do, 2. look up what you need to do for that (read specs), 3. look up if board can do what you want (read docs)
[17:42:33] <lukas2511> it's not that hard
[17:46:12] <guest_____> fact...i am a newbie...that's for shure....money...not so much either...i want to buy a board that can get me as close as possible to the goal by not spending sums with three zeros and beyound
[17:48:47] <guest_____> thanks for now...i will contact olimex directly abot the board i lniked earlier
[17:49:05] <guest_____> and i will come with conclusions
[18:02:42] <adj_> wow, a pin is just a pin...
[18:03:07] <adj_> if gpio pins worked at ddr4 speed world would be beautiful
[18:04:27] <Coolya> :D
[18:05:35] <tbr> yes please, I also want to be able to bitbang DDR4 at full spec speed with my RPi revA
[18:05:36] <guest_____> the only thing that stps them (the pins ) doing that is the company's management
[18:06:15] <adj_> guest_____, you don't know much about electronics, I'm afraid
[18:06:50] <guest_____> and you don't know much about management and politics
[18:07:03] <guest_____> and money for that matter
[18:07:16] <tbr> ACTION fines guest_____ for violating the laws of physics
[18:07:43] <guest_____> why violate them for?
[18:08:23] <guest_____> when a cpu has a clock of 1 ghz i expect a pin toggle at atleast 100 mhz
[18:08:58] <adj_> guest_____, the max speed you would get out with this boards without pcie is probably the gigabit ethernet of olinuixno lime2 or similar
[18:09:07] <guest_____> and that happens only for the proprietary stuff...it is not physics violation or other gibberish like that
[18:09:39] <guest_____> i do not need pcie
[18:09:43] <adj_> what toggles at 1GHz are some transistors and traces _inside_ the cpu
[18:10:09] <guest_____> simple pci would be sufficient
[18:10:45] <adj_> buy a board with pcie, like some freescale imx6
[18:11:13] <Coolya> but he doesn't want to spent more then 30 bucks ... ;)
[18:11:34] <guest_____> i do not know if the Microchip solved their problems with the pic32mz
[18:11:42] <adj_> guest_____, is 450Mb/s enough for you?
[18:12:03] <guest_____> coolya..you are not being cool man
[18:12:43] <adj_> 450Mb/s enough?
[18:12:46] <guest_____> usb doesnt go up to the specs adj_ and you know it
[18:13:02] <guest_____> you cannot build a video card with that speed
[18:13:03] <adj_> who talk about usb
[18:13:04] <adj_> ?
[18:13:30] <guest_____> you said 450Mb not MB
[18:13:44] <adj_> yes, that was what a mean
[18:13:47] <guest_____> i know usb spec is 480
[18:13:59] <guest_____> but anyhow
[18:14:16] <guest_____> what do you suggest
[18:14:18] <guest_____> ?
[18:15:25] <guest_____> yes it would be enough if i could get that on just one pin of an 8 bit port of the chip
[18:16:19] <guest_____> adj_ ....i am waiting:|.....i am dying of curiosity :)
[18:17:54] <guest_____> and if the chip is on an allready made olimex board...it woulod be ecstatic even:)
[18:18:00] <Coolya> guest_____: hm? I just repeated what you said earlier? Anyway you can't expect to get a prototyping board cheaper then the actual endproduct
[18:18:50] <adj_> guest_____, http://www.latticesemi.com/en/Products/DevelopmentBoardsAndKits/iCEstick.aspx
[18:19:02] <guest_____> i allready have an idea how to get the speed up with some high speed multiplexers
[18:19:23] <guest_____> i am wondering why no one mentioned that
[18:19:24] <lukas2511> lol
[18:19:38] <lukas2511> i have a better idea
[18:19:53] <lukas2511> why don't you just try bending the laws of physics, just a tiny bit, i mean, that may work
[18:19:58] <guest_____> it would be cheating but hey..if it works it works
[18:20:29] <guest_____> lukas you do not need to bend the laws of physics..what is wrong with you?
[18:20:58] <lukas2511> just make the time around your board run faster than outside of that time bubble, infinite speedup!
[18:21:11] <lukas2511> how exactly would you imagine a highspeed multiplexer to work?
[18:21:28] <lukas2511> those are multiplexers, not magical boost devices
[18:21:42] <adj_> guest_____, it doesn't exist in 2015 what you are looking for
[18:22:05] <lukas2511> those can do that you only need 1 pin on your chip, and control 8 in- or outputs, at 1/8 of the speed
[18:22:18] <lukas2511> (or n at 1/n of the speed)
[18:22:35] <guest_____> yeah but the magic comes form the keys i press when i program the thing
[18:23:44] <lukas2511> yea go do your magic, show us all how it works, maybe we'll all learn something
[18:24:42] <guest_____> that is why i came here for advice concerning the best olimex board that i can buy....the rest i will take care by myself
[18:25:09] <guest_____> well it was a figure of speech lukas...it is not magic...is more like logic
[18:25:17] <lukas2511> adj_: btw those i.MX6 chips look sweet, are there any preferred cheap devboards?
[18:25:54] <adj_> "my preferred board" is novena
[18:26:01] <adj_> it has a fpga
[18:26:12] <lukas2511> haha okay
[18:26:29] <adj_> you can get something like wandboard or hummingboard
[18:26:35] <lukas2511> just for playing around the novena was a little bit to expensive for my taste
[18:26:50] <adj_> but not all imx6 has pcie interface
[18:26:57] <lukas2511> yea i looked at the specs
[18:27:13] <adj_> also riotboard
[18:27:21] <adj_> probably the cheapest
[18:27:26] <lukas2511> thanks, i'll have a look at those boards
[18:27:30] <adj_> but the one core version
[18:27:50] <lukas2511> don't really need pcie, would only be nicetohave, probably would never use it
[18:28:37] <lukas2511> but yea mh single core is... i don't know
[18:29:47] <adj_> guest_____, just buy a lime2 board, play with the gpio, try to produce vga signals, and learn
[18:30:52] <lukas2511> mh those i.MX6 boards are all a little bit too expensive for just playing around with them, too bad
[18:31:38] <adj_> yes imx6 boards are expensive
[18:31:56] <adj_> imx6 socs are expensive
[18:32:02] <lukas2511> yea i see
[18:32:05] <adj_> at least compared with allwinner and similar
[18:32:08] <adj_> see you
[18:32:49] <lukas2511> the hummingboard seems to be the best option, but that board... well i guess you get what you pay for
[18:32:51] <guest_____> i thought about that but can lime boards be programmed bare metal...whithout using an os?
[18:58:39] <maxime_> guest_____:no
[18:59:38] <guest_____> that means i'l stick to sitara am 3352 for now
[19:00:20] <guest_____> can sitara am3352 be programmed bare metal with the olimex ocd-h ?
[19:00:45] <guest_____> and with what adapter?
[19:01:27] <guest_____> and debugged of course
[19:01:28] <guest_____> ?
[19:13:10] <maxime_> bye bye guys and girls
[19:13:46] <maxime_> weekend time ! \_o<
